Yep, lightspeed, most of all we want or could even ask for is already out there somewhere. Problem is most won't cross platform, some is too expensive and a good deal of it is beyond the average layman to understand or to be able to afford. Most of what we want is also not open source. I don't blame the bussiness man for wanting to make a buck, but if they would throw us a crumb once in a while they may be surprised as the results multiply and they find a larger market, a lower R+D budget and a higher bottom line. Just as sure as I know the fashion companys have benefited from some of our graphics, I know that robotics, animation and A. I. have used our forums for hints on how to proceed. I know they would gain and not lose if they gave us a break once in a while and returned the favor. I know some, especialy, the hal related forums have given even more than we could hope for, but the Big Guys have gone on taking and not giving. Although I'm pretty sure some of them will take the time to read this, as long as they are makeing good money I'm not too sure any of them have the desire to take the challenge! Even the govt. holds back top secret info. that they could share in bits that would benefit both without compromise. IMO.